The ethics of Hiroshima

[stui magpie]

David has utterly failed to comprehend the fundamental point here. There was a choice between two evils, and that one of those two evils was much smaller than the other one.

And this is the key point so often missed. A decision was required to be made, a decision with consequences that would render many utterly indecisive because neither option was palatable. But not making a decision would have been the worst outcome of all.

[think positive]

Another movie for you David, Enola Gay.

The last crew member died last year, aged 93.

She's been restored, and is currently on display here

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_F ... azy_Center

It's on my list of things to see.

[David]

I prefer the song, personally:

http://youtu.be/d5XJ2GiR6Bo

"Enola Gay
Is Mama proud of Little Boy today?
Oh, this kiss you give,
It's never ever going to fade away."

[think positive]

Actually it has and what's there now looks pretty good

[3.14159]

The 2 atomic bombs were dropped to prevent Russian victory over Japan. The Russians launched a MASSIVE assault on Japanese territory towards the end of the war and the Western Allies had already lost the race to Berlin. They certainly didn't want a race towards Tokyo. Also those bombs where part of WW2, a conflict that certainly took more lives than it saved, but probably (possibly?) prevented humanity living under slavery for centuries (Communist, Fascist... Potato, Potatoe).

War is often necessary, but I believe at least literally David is right that not too many (if any) wars would save more lives than they take.

As Wokko says, the Russians were on the move and wanted to grab a slice of Japan but I wish he'd stick to the facts occassionally.
It could hardly be called a MASSIVE assault or a race to a Russian victory in Japan, that's just pure hog-wash!
The problem for the USSR was nearly all their troops were in Europe.
There was little prospect of getting them across at least 10 time zones and then kitting them with equipment and skills they just DIDN''T have!
Sure they nabbed the Sakhalin Islands they were virtually abandoned by the Japanese and the US didn't consider them important enough to occupy.
The USSR didn't have the landing ships or sea-born assault skills the Yanks had honed Island hopping across the Pacific and in Normandy AND the US had the troops ships and planes on hand to finish the job long before the Russian's could even begin a so-called "conquest" of Japan!

NO doubt this grabbing 4 islands and the headaches a Russian presence in post war Japan would involve played a part in American's decision to drop the big one/s.
But they had all ready decided to use the bomb to demonstrate to the world (and Russia in particular) they were the top dog (and save a few US lives along the way).

They didn't have the targets, the time or the inclination to do it in Europe but they still had them in the Japan.

To say the bombing of hiroshima saved lives is true, it also true that the Pacific war cost millions of more lives than it ever saved.

[3.14159]

btb the highest death counts in single raids on Japan were with incendiary raids.
Japanese cities were made of wood and paper which stands up well to blast but but burns like bonfires.
One night in Tokyo 100,000+ were estimated to have died (and 250,000 injured).
Similar figures account for the cities of Kobe Osaka and 1/2 a dozen more.
The over-all figures of deaths in the firestorms go as high 5 million casualties.
By the time the A bombs were dropped there was precious little left worth dropping them on and numbers killed pale in comparison.

Personally,
I'd rather disappear in a sudden flash light and blast of heat than face the horror of watching myself and the whole district I lived in burst into flames, (with no-where to run too but oblivion).
I guess you could say dropping the A bomb was more moral than what preceded it.

[Wokko]

Russia had 1.7 Million troops, 26,000 artillery, 5.5 thousand tanks and 5.5 thousand aircraft in Manchuria. They declared war on Japan 3 months after the surrender of Germany and smashed the only major Japanese army left.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_in ... _Manchuria

Russia and Japan are technically still at war too, no peace was signed after WW2 and still hasn't been because Russia wont leave the islands it conquered. Russia had plans to invade Hokkaido too, one thing the A bomb certainly did was prevent a partitioned Japan similar to Korea and Vietnam.

[Wokko]

[Mugwump]

[ronrat]

I just can't get over the fact that some people think that in all the hell of WW11 that it was wrong to bomb anywhere in Germany or Japan. They were the aggressors and if their own people didn't suffer how the hell would they have a reason to stop doing what they where doing.

The Irish women were largely responsible for stopping the IRA/Provo conflict by saying enough is enough. In the end a large public sway against kids coming home in boxes stopped the war in Vietnam because the mothers had had enough.

David a physcopath I am not. But I did spend 34 years working with the military. I did learn stuff like legal requirements of war, rules of engagement, denial of territory, civilian protection procedures, threat assessments and harm minimisation. I doubt you know any of that. or how it works in a well trained military officers mind.

I have a friend who is still suffering from what he saw in Bosnia whilst on detachment to the UK and was arrested after belting a Serbian (no sorry an Australian) in Young and Jacksons who was boasting what he did there. Diagnosed with PTSD he still doesn't understand while the prick walks our streets instead of having his arse dragged back for war crimes. Australian soldiers are simply wired differently to those people and the NAZIs and the the WW11 Japa.

Tannin has helped, and I rarely am on the same page with him, but we agree. That should tell you something. Yet people persist. Without those bombs millions would have died and without those more later in the battles that would have ensued as S E Asia tried to get some sort of independence from the Japanese rather than the UK and Holland.

And Dresden made war materiels, like Coventry, Melbourne, Horishima and Nagasaki. If the Allies had of hit German cities very early how many would have been saved. But villages in PNG made spears and they were wiped out by the Japanese. Not hearing a lot of sympathy for those poor buggers, best forgotten.

There is no earthly reason for me to have any empathy for Japanese of Germans who attended rallies and shook the imperial rattle. I might have a bit more if they showed some remorse afterwards but we are still catching the Nazi bastards and still these lunatics raise groups . And Japans answer to us is to slaughter whales despite the opposition of the countries they tried so hard to subjugate.

I only wish the bombs had of been dropped months earlier so decent, hardworking and freedom loving people hadn't of died in vain. In fact I wish the Yanks had it 3 years earlier so the Japanese would have thought twice about enslaving a dozen countries for the pure purpose of obtaining rubber, oil and rice. If collateral damage is a Japanese family over 30 Indonesian families well stiff shit.

[Mugwump]

Thank God we won the war is all I have to say.

Imagine if the Germans or Japanese had of developed nuclear weapons first.

Given how the Germans treated the Jews and the Japanese our prisoners of war it's not hard to imagine that the world would have been far worse off.

Not only did we win the war we had enough humanity to allow Germany and Japan to rebuild and develop into the prosperous countries they are today.

Would Hitler or the kamikaze crazy Japanese have been so accommodating in victory?

Doubt it.

Quite right, Swoop. Simple and common-sensical, and completely correct. the powerful military democracies have their faults, but thank God they existed then, and now.

[3.14159]

Russia had 1.7 Million troops, 26,000 artillery, 5.5 thousand tanks and 5.5 thousand aircraft in Manchuria. They declared war on Japan 3 months after the surrender of Germany and smashed the only major Japanese army left.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_in ... _Manchuria

Russia and Japan are technically still at war too, no peace was signed after WW2 and still hasn't been because Russia wont leave the islands it conquered. Russia had plans to invade Hokkaido too, one thing the A bomb certainly did was prevent a partitioned Japan similar to Korea and Vietnam.

Manchuria was an area in dispute since before the war.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet%E2% ... _conflicts

When war with the US broke out Manchuria was occupied because the Soviets had precious little assets in place that could cope with the new Japanese weapons, tactics and troop numbers.
The Soviet military mind (and might) was focused on Europe and the delicate tight wire act it was performing with the Germans and consolidating it's gains in Poland.
There after all their military was power poured into defeating the Germans (a real wolf at the door) and occupying Europe (as were the British French and US!!!)
With the Germans were defeated, the Soviets tore up the neutrality pact they had with Japan, re-entered Manchuria (Land they had legitimate claims too) and mopped up what was effect an all ready defeated and depleted enemy.
What the Soviets did was take back what was all ready theirs to begin with!
(Excluding the Sakhalin Islands of course).

Btw... Any information on how the Soviets intended to launch this MASSIVE conquest of Japan you spoke of?
What was the code name for this ambitious amphibious landing operation?
Stalin didn't care much for the Navy (too untrustworthy, Battleship Potemkin etc etc) and built few large warships, no carriers, none of the types of ship needed for such a massive undertaking and absolutely no-one in the NAVY had an ounce of training for a sea born assault.
How were they going to get these boats (if they had them?) all the way around the world with-out anyone noticing and before the Pacific war ended?

[Tannin]

^ Causeway.

18 million peasants with wooden shovels.

[stui magpie]

^ Causeway.

18 million peasants with wooden shovels.

Jog through china, build up a head of steam so when they get to the chinese coast they can leap on the surfskis they carried from home and surf straight over to Japan.

[Wokko]

It wasn't going to be a massive invasion due to lack of troop transports. From what I've gathered there was going to be a beachhead landing on Hokkaido (Northernmost Japanese island) and then bring enough troops over to consolidate. Northern Japan was relatively undefended, with the South being a veritable fortress.

I don't think the Russians had thought too much about Kamikaze attacks which would've wrecked them, but if the Russians had a foothold on the main islands it would've made postwar dealings with the USA rather interesting.

We may laugh at the thought of millions of peasants building bridges, but the Russians used to run prison battalions through minefields to clear them. Not too concerned with losses was Uncle Joe.