Transgender athletes back on the agenda

[David]

At no point have I said that a transgender woman couldn't have a physical advantage over cis women. In many cases, they will have a physical advantage. All I've even arguing is that physical advantages and disadvantages in competitive sport are something we already accept and are not inherently unfair.

Even if you could conclusively demonstrate that a given transgender woman (or even all transgender women) playing AFLW would be stronger than any cis woman ever, I don't see how that would make that point invalid. It would simply mean that the overall spectrum of physical ability in women's sport had broadened.

[stui magpie]

But, I repeat agin, your argument that physical differences within a gender are comparable to the physical differences between the genders is fundamentally flawed.

[David]

How so? Only because the differences are bigger? And if so, at what point does a physical advantage become so much greater that it is no longer tolerable in a contact sport?

[think positive]

No. Try reading my arguments.

A male who transitions to a female has a physical advantage for one. If you transitioned, you're chances of being a top line AFLW player would be slim to none as you have close to zero talent.

However, a male athlete who has competed as an adult man against other adult men to then transition and play against women, if that person doesn't have a physical advantage I'll go she.

Find me a single athletic sport/competition where the best woman is better than then best man. There aren't any. It's not an equal playing field, but if the relevant bodies are OK with it, that's fine with me.

Agree with all but I'm not ok with it. As a female if I'm best in the world except for a man who has had a sex change damn right I'd campaign and protest against it. A transgender is a person who feels they are in the wrong body. You can have surgery and take drugs to make adjustments to accomodate the mental state, but it's still fundamentally the body you were born with.

So I guess in answer to your earlier question I will bravely answer no, I don't consider them to be women in the real sense of the word because genetically, physically, physiologically they are not.

[think positive]

My problem with your argument is that it's about physical diversity within a gender, doesn't address the physiological differences between men and women and I therefore deem it irrelevant, misinformed and generally nonsensical.

You have been posting the same argument since page 1, it hasn't got any better. It's still shit.

In lieu of a like button I had to quote this post, I love it.......lots.

I concur,

and my arguement and opinion hasn't changed either, cheers

[stui magpie]

Short answer is it's not my call, the sporting body has put their rules in around testosterone levels.

Longer answer, it's not about being no longer tolerable, it's basically the same argument against PED's.

even with the chemically induced testosterone deficiency, you have a physiological male competing against females.

yes, within a gender you have massive physical variances but we don't ask mason Cox to play rover against short fast munckins and we don't ask fasolo to plat FF against a key back.......ehhhh, that last point might need rethinking but you get my gist.

How would you feel if in 10 years time the AFLW or the Australian womens cricket team is dominated by transgender people? Should there be a separate competition for transgenders or do you just tell all the women who can't get in to suck it up?

[think positive]

Where are those big hands clapping!

[HAL]

In the Universe we know.

[David]

Short answer is it's not my call, the sporting body has put their rules in around testosterone levels.

Longer answer, it's not about being no longer tolerable, it's basically the same argument against PED's.

even with the chemically induced testosterone deficiency, you have a physiological male competing against females.

yes, within a gender you have massive physical variances but we don't ask mason Cox to play rover against short fast munckins and we don't ask fasolo to plat FF against a key back.......ehhhh, that last point might need rethinking but you get my gist.

How would you feel if in 10 years time the AFLW or the Australian womens cricket team is dominated by transgender people? Should there be a separate competition for transgenders or do you just tell all the women who can't get in to suck it up?

I think that's an unlikely scenario because a) transgender people make up a tiny percentage of the population and b) of the few transgender women who are actually interested in playing football and good enough to make the cut, only a few would actually be in the top tier for strength and size compared to other women. If I got a sex change tomorrow, I would not exactly be dominating the AFLW comp, would I?

But let's say this hypothetical does come true. You know what it sounds like? "Imagine if, one day, American basketball is dominated by black men". Or, "imagine if one day long-distance running is dominated by Kenyans". Do you just tell all the white basketballers and long-distance runners who don't make the cut to suck it up? Should Africans have their own competition? Ultimately, I don't see how this is fundamentally different.

[swoop42]

That full forward for Adelaide is a pretty big unit.

I'd get my arse kicked if I took on some 198cm female basketball player and I tell you I'd have been a far better sportsmen if I had the advantage of height like some of my less talented but much taller opponents.

The reality is people are advantaged or disadvantaged all the time because of physical differences and even at elite levels people like Michael Phelps are even more successful potentially because they have abnormally long arms and increased joint flexibility over rivals while Serena Williams is far stronger than most of her female opponents and simply hits the ball harder and for longer during rallies.

If this person ticks all the boxes that allows them to compete as a transgender woman then who am I to try and stop them.

[stui magpie]

Short answer is it's not my call, the sporting body has put their rules in around testosterone levels.

Longer answer, it's not about being no longer tolerable, it's basically the same argument against PED's.

even with the chemically induced testosterone deficiency, you have a physiological male competing against females.

yes, within a gender you have massive physical variances but we don't ask mason Cox to play rover against short fast munckins and we don't ask fasolo to plat FF against a key back.......ehhhh, that last point might need rethinking but you get my gist.

How would you feel if in 10 years time the AFLW or the Australian womens cricket team is dominated by transgender people? Should there be a separate competition for transgenders or do you just tell all the women who can't get in to suck it up?

I think that's an unlikely scenario because a) transgender people make up a tiny percentage of the population and b) of the few transgender women who are actually interested in playing football and good enough to make the cut, only a few would actually be in the top tier for strength and size compared to other women. If I got a sex change tomorrow, I would not exactly be dominating the AFLW comp, would I?

But let's say this hypothetical does come true. You know what it sounds like? "Imagine if, one day, American basketball is dominated by black men". Or, "imagine if one day long-distance running is dominated by Kenyans". Do you just tell all the white basketballers and long-distance runners who don't make the cut to suck it up? Should Africans have their own competition? Ultimately, I don't see how this is fundamentally different.

OK. So why have separate competitions for men and women then?

[think positive]

Exactly!


From the big footy thread on the subject

"I absolutely disagree with the 12 month criteria. I am a post op transgender women prior to my gender surgery I had seven years of hormone replacement therapy. Whilst pre op I had to had to suspend my hormone regime a couple of times for medical reasons. I found my strength and endurance returned very quickly at these times."

Also, from that thread,
rfctiger74 said: ↑
Do you honestly think a man would go through gender reassignment surgery just to rort the aflw and the pittance they currently earn?

Reply
You dont have to have the surgery anymore. That is the change. And this wasnt just about the AFLW, its now the Olympic rule.

And I'd say people have gone to all sorts of insane lengths to win Olympic medals.



Seriously? You don't have to have the surgery?

[thesoretoothsayer]

There are only a small number (16?) of marquee player postions available in the AFLW.
If I was a woman dreaming of becoming a semi-professional AFL player, I'd be pissed off if one of these marquee spots went to someone who was a man a couple of years beforehand.

[David]

[think positive]