Our veteran quandary

[inxs88]

^ Sometimes I wonder whether people pay much attention to the team structures. Sidebottom and WHE are there to do the hard running to close down space up and down the wings. I was surprised to see calls after the game for WHE (who is not my favourite player, by far) to be dropped, since he was plainly doing exactly the job the Coach wanted - but, whatever the position with WHE, Sidebottom was one of our best few players on the night.

No other player at the Club (including Pendlebury and the Daicoses) could have set up that kick to De Goey. Ginnivan isn't going to play the wing (though he will, I hope, come straight back into the team, because he is Collingwood's most accomplished forward).

Sidebottom should hold down the wing this year and next, at least, unless his endurance suddenly falls off a cliff (as well as being exquisitely skilled with his disposal by hand and foot, he remains Collingwood's hardest 2-way runner, although he is not - and has never been - the fastest) or he decides he's had enough.

People have been announcing Sidebottom's impending demise for more than a decade. It will come eventually - but not yet.

Given WHE clangered up every time he touched the ball, I find your surprise surprising.

[RudeBoy]

I agree with P4S on WHE and Sidey.

Watching the replay again I reckon several of WHE's 'clangers' were the result of him getting the hard ball and having to dispose of it quickly under high pressure. He is highly skilled and a gut runner. Sidey's skills are silk.

[Magpietothemax]

^ Sometimes I wonder whether people pay much attention to the team structures. Sidebottom and WHE are there to do the hard running to close down space up and down the wings. I was surprised to see calls after the game for WHE (who is not my favourite player, by far) to be dropped, since he was plainly doing exactly the job the Coach wanted - but, whatever the position with WHE, Sidebottom was one of our best few players on the night.

No other player at the Club (including Pendlebury and the Daicoses) could have set up that kick to De Goey. Ginnivan isn't going to play the wing (though he will, I hope, come straight back into the team, because he is Collingwood's most accomplished forward).

Sidebottom should hold down the wing this year and next, at least, unless his endurance suddenly falls off a cliff (as well as being exquisitely skilled with his disposal by hand and foot, he remains Collingwood's hardest 2-way runner, although he is not - and has never been - the fastest) or he decides he's had enough.

People have been announcing Sidebottom's impending demise for more than a decade. It will come eventually - but not yet.

Great analysis P4S. Agree with everything
Several of WHE's turnovers in the first half were due to the immense pressure he was under, and not skill errors. I would not be looking to drop him for his performance. Agree with you on Sidey. I thought Sidey played a great game. He is a rock of experience in our team, constantly stepping in to link up crucially, or rectify dangerous situations. He is an absolute legend, and seems to be growing ever finer under Fly.
(However, I do think that maybe Jaicos could also have set up that kick. )
As for Pendles, yes, no doubt that he is a Collingwood marvel. His ability to contribute at an elite level for so many years, is just a miracle. In the game against Geelong, his contribution was as excellent as ever. He will finish his career as the mentor of our next captain. Darcy could not be in better hands.

[mgh3536]

Silk, great runner, link player etc agreed

Isn’t a good tackler
Can easily be tagged out of a game

We can only play 22

I would maintain that crisp could do sidey role
Lipinski when he is back
Like to test reef McInnes in that role

Sidey has been a brilliant servant

[inxs88]

Interesting to see who goes first:
* Pendles: the oldest but the most in form
* Howe: the most aerobically capable, but most injury prone
* Steele: the youngest but might be the most vulnerable

Thoughts?

[Pies4shaw]

Putting aside that Sidebottom is one of our 5 most-highly skilled players, people seem to ignore all the hard running he does to close down holes and provide a loose man in defence, when required. I don't think our five on five defence works without him and WHE pushing hard both ways - and it is the running capacity on top of his special disposal skill that sets Sidebottom apart.

We can replace him, like we will replace Pendlebury and replaced Cloke, in about a quarter of a century when somebody of his class, durability and running capacity comes onto the list again. Re-watching the round 2 game against Port serves to show that both Sidebottom and WHE were individually responsible for creating contests deep in defence that stopped goals.

Pendlebury and Sidebottom will both play until the end of 2024, if they want to - and will be physically able to play on after that and still be amongst our top handful of players if they still want it enough. Pendlebury will probably reach 400 games+ before he is done. I don't think Sidebottom will get to that number but I think he will comfortably reach somewhere between 325 and 350 if he wants to do so.

Howe is a different kettle of fish. Pendlebury and Sidebottom have always been "slow" players, so ageing has not done to them what it does to many midfield players who rely on a burst of pace - neither had one, so neither has lost anything. Howe does rely on his leap and his general athletic ability so he probably finishes up before the other two - because age and injury will diminish his attributes in a way that it hasn't affected them.

[Pies4shaw]

And here we are at halftime in the round 3 Richmond game. Difficult conditions at the MCG. Collingwood leads, though should lead by much more - and Sidebottom has been the leading player for us. 18 disposals (12 kicks, 6 handballs, 349 metres gained, 7 intercept possessions (next best on the ground is 5), 5 score involvements, 3 clearances (equal best for us with Josh Daicos), 9 contested possessions (the most on the ground), 4 inside 50s, 2 tackles, 92% gametime. There's a fair bit of mileage in those legs, yet - and it's difficult to say where we'd be placed in this game if he wasn't our main man tonight.

[Beavis]

Silk, great runner, link player etc agreed

Isn’t a good tackler
Can easily be tagged out of a game

We can only play 22

I would maintain that crisp could do sidey role
Lipinski when he is back
Like to test reef McInnes in that role

Sidey has been a brilliant servant

Crisp is the literally opposite of Sidey. Quick, mechanical, often tunnel vision with not particularly great awareness. He's actually better running straight through the midfield because there's less time to assess and just acting is more appropriate. When he plays a looser role like off HB and actually needs to spend time assessing options his decision making is often crap. Even Lipinksi who is more skilled than Crisp IMO looks constantly panicked when surrounded by players which is the one place his decision making falls over. Obviously the Daicos boys have it, and that's what will probably naturally happen.

[BazBoy]

[inxs88]

You'd hope that Ryan plays a similar role to Howe although he had great junior success in Adelaide off the WING. Allan has the same height and body shape of Pendles. If we get half of his career achievements we are excited.

[inxs88]

It's good to have an ushering in program based on development not poor list management gaps AKA Hawthorn currently. 30-40 Reserves games into:

* Allan
* Richards
* Ruscoe (already there)
* Bianco (" " " " " )
* Macrae (" " " "
* Wlison
* Krueger
* Draper
* Murley
* Harrison
* McInnes
* Carmichael
* Dean
* Kelly (if lucky)

Would make a world of difference to their confidence when senior selected.

[Ronnie McKeowns boots]

...... There's a fair bit of mileage in those legs, yet - and it's difficult to say where we'd be placed in this game if he wasn't our main man tonight.

You see, thats what I consider putting the mocka on someone, cant you say something like 'we should all be grateful to get this level of performance from an older player, and hope steadfastly for it to continue'?

[inxs88]

Starting Season 2024, we shall have 10 players post 30 years of age, namely:

* Pendles: 36*
* Steele: 33*
* Cox: 33*
* Howe: 33*
* Elliott: 31*
* Mihocek: 31*
* Adams: 30*
* Mitchell: 30*
* Crisp: 30*
* WHE: 30*

Smarter minds at the club would no doubt have oversight on this than me, but you sense that with all of them contracted* next season and some beyond, there shall be zero departures at seasons end 2023. This to me is of some concern. The cliff can come quick for players and we are seeing some wear and tear on some of the above come August.

You wonder if we snared a flag next month whether Steele may say "goodbye". Even Pendles for that matter albeit the 400 game carrot may be impulse enough to continue. That aside, we don't want to be stuck mid 2024 with 4-6 of the above being injured, out of form or no longer capable. The West Coast Eagles demise is a salient example of this.

Thoughts?

[Jezza]

I've shared the same concerns for a little while. It adds to the pressure that we need to win the premiership before many of these players decline and then eventually depart the club.

I have full faith that Wrighty and the list management team will be able to manage the exits of our veterans in the coming years, and replace them with highly rated draftees and intelligent trading. You don't need to bottom out to have long-term success.

It's always a balancing act. Cut too deep and too quickly and you'll be bottoming out before you know it. If you retain veterans past their use by date, it can also be disastrous as West Coast have demonstrated.

[inxs88]

^

good point, it's a fine line between pleasure and pain said Miss Amphlett