Welcome to Collingwood, Derek Hine

[HAL]

How old are you? Oh, you are a poet. What do you have that is it? What specifically brings fantastic to mind? The ALICE chat robot can follow many things, like our discussion about PUSHstate of our youth. But I did not get that. Are you still located in We Play?

[call me frank]

I thought Hine came from the bombers...could be wrong though (to answer a previous question)

[John Wren]

no doubt the naysayers will point to malthouse's inability to develop the talent hine has recruited. this thread was only posted during this year's nab cup. i think people lose sight of the big picture and sometimes don't see the forest for the trees.

[dalyc]

no doubt the naysayers will point to malthouse's inability to develop the talent hine has recruited. this thread was only posted during this year's nab cup. i think people lose sight of the big picture and sometimes don't see the forest for the trees.

I see the big picture and the forest.

10 years, 8 million bucks, no flag, see ya Mick!

[Breadcrawl]

Fair chance he wasn't getting 800K ten years ago.

But feel free to exaggerate to promote your boring, negative argument.

[AN_Inkling]

This thread is definitely closer to the mark than the doom and gloom threads that have popped up after every loss this year - even after the Geelong loss .

We have a strong, deep, but still very young list. Anyone who expected us to consistently dominate this season were dreaming. Finals were always likely, the top 4 possible if things went well (few injuries, win the close ones), a premiership was only to be hoped for, not genuinely expected. Curretly we're in eighth. We've lost the close ones and had significant injuries. Still a chance for top 4, but it will be tough. Still a likely top 8 finisher.

The lack of experience, therefore strong leadership and strong bodies in our team, is a concern. You don't lose the amount of experienced players we have in the last few years and just continue on your merry way. This will only be addressed with time, we can't magically increase the maturity of our list.

Malthouse is doing a fine job with the players he has at his disposal, as he has throughout his time at the club. The only argument against him that I can see, is that he's been too good, that we should have bottomed out more to increase the speed of our rebuild. A few seasons there where we won more games than expected with such a young list, even winning finals. It's a fair criticism, but, our rebuild seeems to have gone quite well, despite not bottoming out. We've been very successful in our drafting in the last 5 years, particularly so with Rookie picks and post first round picks. The only concern is we may lack genuine superstars, our depth and overall quality looks assured.

[sq3]

I am not blaming MM directly for the development of the players - it really lays at the feet of the whole football department and not just MM.

Look at the team he had at WCE - McIntosh, Gehrig, Jacko, Mainwaring, Woosha etc., all players with big frames and very good skills when they were drafted.

At the Pies MM inherits a list that are physically smaller and less skilled.

What we needed (in 20/20 hindsight) was someone from the WCE skills and strength department to explain how their model was implemented.

Yes - MM is head of the football department but he cannot do everything.

In this area I think the Pies management have erred and now the Cats have worked it out - Saints, Lions etc.,

It is not all MM's fault.

[DaVe86]

Just think how good our midfield will be in around 50 games time with Sidebottom, Beams and Pendlebury owning it. Swan will still be on top of his game, and Didak and Davis will still be at their peak.

Hopefully McCarthey and Cook come on. Dale Thomas is going to be an absolute star as well...people are writing him off too early in his career.

KPP stock are ok down back with Nathan Brown developing quickly and Ben Reid showing promising signs of taking the CHB role.

I'm pretty positive because I really think Sidebottom and Beams are great picks.

[AN_Inkling]

I am not blaming MM directly for the development of the players - it really lays at the feet of the whole football department and not just MM.

Look at the team he had at WCE - McIntosh, Gehrig, Jacko, Mainwaring, Woosha etc., all players with big frames and very good skills when they were drafted.

Don't remember McIntosh being all that well developed when drafted, but anyway. So, you're saying the problem with our list development is, lack of body strength? Can agree with you, for the moment, but this is one area where players develop over their career. Sure, Pendlebury, Thomas, Dick, Wellingham are unliklely to ever be physically dominating players - though, look at Leon compared to when he started - but, we do have McCarthy, Cook, Toovey, Stanley, Sidebottom, Swan, H.Shaw, Clarke... who all are, or look as if they could be, quite strong-bodied players. That's not to say they'll all make it as players, but there's no doubt we have drafted some stronger bodies. This is along with our well-developed talls in - N.Brown, Dawes, Anthony, Cloke, Maxwell, Rusling, Macaffer. Lack of body strength, particularly through the middle, is a current concern, mostly due to the age of our list, but we may be okay for the future.

And talking skill - I have no concerns for our overall skill level going forward.

Our development of young players has been top notch over the last 5 years or so - I'd say better than any other team. Especially when you look at the number of Rookie picks and post first round picks that have made some impact (one of them even becoming captain), and the number of games we've won, against the odds, with very young teams.

At the Pies MM inherits a list that are physically smaller and less skilled.

We were not all that undersized in our previous incarnation - Buckley. Licuria, Holland, Rocca, Clement, Presti, Tarrant...

What we needed (in 20/20 hindsight) was someone from the WCE skills and strength department to explain how their model was implemented.

Nah, just needed a couple of better players. Don't think you could call Mick's first list a disaster, we did make two Grand Finals. Just lacked that bit of class to knock off a super team.

[sq3]

AN_Inkling - as I used in another thread compare the following 2 players -
Josh Fraser and Brent Renouf - Renouf has been in the system for 2 years and was much thinner than Josh when recruited. Brents brother Chris is a pro golfer and very thin. Brent has added 10+kg's in 18 months and that allows him to compete better.

Daisey and Billy Slater - when Billy was recruited (by the Storm) he rode track work the Waterhouse stable in Brisbane. Slater is now 10kgs (at least) heavier. He is also faster and stronger than Daisey - by a lot.

Look at the Saints last week - they physically intimidated the smaller bodied Pies players.

We need to get better in this area.

As for the skills - let's just see where we are at the end of the year as well as the Bombers and that may give an insight into how much Richo really did with the players - compared to this years solution.

[johnybravo87]

Just think how good our midfield will be in around 50 games time with Sidebottom, Beams and Pendlebury owning it. Swan will still be on top of his game, and Didak and Davis will still be at their peak.

Hopefully McCarthey and Cook come on. Dale Thomas is going to be an absolute star as well...people are writing him off too early in his career.

KPP stock are ok down back with Nathan Brown developing quickly and Ben Reid showing promising signs of taking the CHB role.

I'm pretty positive because I really think Sidebottom and Beams are great picks.

please excuse me whilst i drool.....we are still an extremley young list with plenty of talent. if mick does leave us at the end of the year, there will plently of potential coaches out there clamering to get the chance to work with and continue to develop our list. and if we were to win a flag within 2-3 years of mick potential departing, alot of credit would needed to given to mick.

[sq3]

Just think how good our midfield will be in around 50 games time with Sidebottom, Beams and Pendlebury owning it. Swan will still be on top of his game, and Didak and Davis will still be at their peak.

Hopefully McCarthey and Cook come on. Dale Thomas is going to be an absolute star as well...people are writing him off too early in his career.

KPP stock are ok down back with Nathan Brown developing quickly and Ben Reid showing promising signs of taking the CHB role.

I'm pretty positive because I really think Sidebottom and Beams are great picks.

please excuse me whilst i drool.....we are still an extremley young list with plenty of talent. if mick does leave us at the end of the year, there will plently of potential coaches out there clamering to get the chance to work with and continue to develop our list. and if we were to win a flag within 2-3 years of mick potential departing, alot of credit would needed to given to mick.

Very true mate - he will have contributed a lot.

If only there was a way to keep everyone happy and have Eddie, Bux and MM all working together at the Pies ???

[nomadjack]

Sq3, I partially agree with you about the relative body size of our players, but most of the difference I think can be put down to the age of our players.

The comparison between Renouf and Fraser is a good one. Josh has simply not progressed in this area and I don't know why. What weight he managed to put on in his initial few years disappeared when he caught an infection and was sidelined for half a season in (2004?) Whether it's his body type, reluctance to do the hard gym work, need for endurance or whatever I don't know, but he does still get monstered by bigger-bodied ruckmen because of his lack of size.

The Slater and Daisy comparison though is more problematic for a number of reasons. Aside from the fact that the demands of the two codes are completely different (I'd suspect that daisy would cover at least twice as much territory if not more than billy in a game and therefore need to train more for endurance), Slater is three years older than Daisy and has been in the first grade system for six years instead of three. He's also only 5 kilo heavier than Daisy 89kgs to 85kgs although daisy is 7cm taller. You can't successfully put bulk on young frames overnight while keeping them injury free and maintaining speed and endurance.

[sq3]

I do agree Nomadjack - Billy is heavier than 89 though. When he started with the Storm he was well under 75 kg - that is why I used him as the comparison - he has constantly added muscle and got a lot faster. Daisy does cover more distance but I think that can be offset by the hits that the NRL guys take compared to the AFL tackles. The front on hits can be very brutal and energy sapping.

The reason I used Josh and Renouf is the Renouf boys are all very thin but Brent has added 10+kg in 2 pre seasons - something is working down
at Glenferrie. Brent was thinner than Josh when he started and both played seniors in their 1st season.

I was going to use Greg Inglis - but who on the Pies list could you compare him to ??? GI is once in a lifetime player just like G.Ablett - Snr and Jnr.

We do need to make more progress in the strength area - what really worries me in now that the Storm train at the Blues oval - if Corvo helps out the Blues they will one hell of a team of strong bodied players.

[roar]

Need at least 1 of Brown, Dawes or Reid to become a good KPP before we start getting too excited.